Okay, more follow up.
(Kim: Because I
have a secret theory that we can only understand that which is like ourselves
and that lesbians
have the right idea in this regard.)
sure I get the lesbian reference. Would only understanding
that which is like ourselves then not also apply of gay
men? Or Jews? or African-Americans? Or people who live
in the Central West End?
Obiviously, I am being a little silly.But I am wary of essentialism.
I can't tell you how many lesbians I do not get at
You have managed to stay in the understanding game with
each other for a long time, Kim. What is it, 36 years?
I don't like the word "managed" . . . sounds
too much like a job rather than a treat.)
love how protective you are of your relationship with Linda.
It seems to me like you bristle slightly
you think I have gotten
Do you? Bristle, that is.
Yes, I don't like the words you use . . . like even "understanding
I know you two seem to get along
very well. But I do think there is a degree
of managing for anyone to truly get along with another,
especially over a long period
Obviously relationships are
hard work, if that's what you mean.)
don't have to talk about you and Linda if you want. But maybe we should
discuss this idea.
I think gettingalong with
someone involves some erasure of self in certain places and enhancement
in others. It
is something with which
(Kim: No, I don't buy this . . . that
we have to erase part of ourselves, etc.)
Do you not feel that
you have to manage yourself and maybe your experience of other people?
How about in your capacity as dean?
Yes, as dean, one has to work hard.)
What did Jennifer Holzer actually say
and where did you read it?
can understand someone of your sex only" http://mfx.dasburo.com/art/truisms.html)
all of thestatements on the website by Holzer?
I think they are all statements that most people believe in one
way or another.)
How did you find the site?
Do you agree with all of her statements?
I believe that she cites these as commonly believed truths.
I agree that there is some truth in all the statements. I think her wisdom
in the statements but in the way she stirs things up.)
do you feel about it?
(Kim: I think it
is more courageous to try to understand things different than
Any act of truly trying to understand might be seen
as an act of courage.
(Kim: I don't see how fear can be a shield.)
It can be a shield when it morphs into a kind of body armour
by way of defense.
When I am not afraid, whenI lived in Laguna Beach for example,
I experienced myself and my body very differently. I was not afraid to
walk freely by myself. And interestingly, it translated into what
i was willing or even wanting to wear. I wanted` to wear
more skirts and dresses. Not to catch anyone's eye but for my own
sensual pleasure.Without a shield of fear, I was free to
experience myself sensually and perhaps more significantly, to
project that to others.
Can a man know what it is like to feel the sting of often not being taken
seriously in a work environment?
Yes, I think so. Sensitivity can help us feel all kinds of things.)
the economic disparities in many situations.
Or to feel the personal power of a certain kind of feminine flirtation?
The kind I can pull out when really needed and that works on
men from 7
(Kim: Sure. There is a similar power (sometimes) in being a
would like to hear more about that. Do you think you can talk
comfortably about that? Or draw about it?
It would have to percolate.)
are old examples. And in some ways
cliched except they are based in my
reality. And that of many other
women that I know.
Let's go back further.
What does it mean to understand?
(Kim: To take ownership. To be
able to recreate.)
are you recreating? What do you mean by ownership?
The neat thing about owning knowledge is that you can give
it away and still
keep it. When a person in ancient China said
that they had seen
something they meant that they could recreate it from memory.)
do you mean by understanding?
The act of becoming one with the object/subject.)
do you think Jennifer
I'm not sure she meant
it. It is a truism—something
most people believe.)
there are points of commonality basedonvarious
shared realties. But I refuse to
accept that we
cannot understand each other, whether male and
female or any other groupings. And
as an artist, if I believe
I can't really understand
the other, whoever that
other may be, I have no
palette or vocabulary
We don't even understand ourselves, do we? I asked my sister
psychoanalyst) if we ever can get to the truth.
She said no,
that the layers go on
For some people, we are all
part of the same energy. "I" is
not a very meaningful
it is narcissism.
Nov 21, 2005